Tourism has negative social and environmental effects worldwide. Aruba, one happy island, is no different. Aruban native Nigel Maduro shares staggering findings of how the tourism industry is impacting his home land. What is the impact of over tourism and unregulated development on a small Caribbean island? find out in the episode.
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00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:21
Maanarak
We envision a future where individuals are empowered to think critically and creatively, where citizens become agents of change by promoting self-governance, co-creation, and bottom up approaches. Welcome to our podcast.
00:03:14:12 - 00:03:46:21
Maanarak
Okay. Now, welcome. Welcome back to the Kreashon podcast. I have with me Nigel Maduro. And yeah, I usually just dive right in as though I'm going to ask you, who are you and what do you do?
Nigel
And thank you for having me and really appreciate it. So my name's Nigel. Where am I? I am a mixed race indigenous person of Aruba.
00:03:46:23 - 00:04:19:08
Nigel
What do I do or what's my background? Well, yeah, I am currently nomadic. I am free flow. I am everything and anything. And, yeah, I really finished all my studies, so I'm just really. Just living around looking, trying to see what's my next opportunity. Um, I have a background in human resources, so I have a Bachelor of Arts in International Human Resource Management.
00:04:19:10 - 00:04:57:12
Nigel
I have experience working in environment organizations, which is Greenpeace New Zealand. I also work in a sustainability consultancy firm in Rotterdam, and I have a masters of Science in Strategic leadership towards sustainability. Not only that, but I am also a certified entrepreneur in emerging economies. So have different backgrounds in different disciplines regarding social entrepreneurship, but also sustainability and ecology, and with a specialization in indigenous peoples and conservation.
00:04:57:15 - 00:05:33:11
Nigel
So that's a little bit of a background. Yeah, I'm 27 years of age. I am currently in Aruba right now. So yeah, just having a little vacation back home and motherland and yeah, I'm super excited to be part of this and thank you for having me.
Maanarak
Yeah, thank you for joining. So, yeah, of course, we started talking because we have similar backgrounds in terms of like the interest in nature conservation and climate action and also the indigenous part.
00:05:33:13 - 00:06:02:06
Maanarak
And recently I, I saw you were raising concerns about some issues that were happening on your home island of Aruba. Would you like to hear more about what's happening?
Nigel
Yes. So I arrived in Aruba about two months ago on 17th of August, approximately so and I didn't know what I was getting myself for because I haven't been back to Aruba for five years.
00:06:02:08 - 00:06:40:11
Nigel
So, like, when I arrived, I was only posting like paradise content or stuff with me going to the beach a lot or going in nature and having good times I spent in a family and posting it. So all the happy stuff. But really I've been holding back on the realities of what we're facing in Aruba. And yeah, so with my own eyes, I saw a lot of changes happening around Aruba in terms of nature and also how people are being treated.
00:06:40:13 - 00:07:13:20
Nigel
And what I tried to do during my onset of my trips over there in the last period of my trip, I put my foot down and I was like, actually, no, like the me. I'm showing everyone the happy side of Aruba. We live one happy island. But let me show you what's actually happening, because no one's no one no one is courageous enough to say anything about the current situation in Aruba.
00:07:13:22 - 00:07:44:07
Nigel
So I started posting videos and pictures to demonstrate what I would see with my own eyes. So I started posting pictures about what's happening to our nature to damages what's happening to just the people and what you're seeing as well, make it very qualitative and also really shedding a light on neocolonialism in regards to the hotel tourism industry.
00:07:44:07 - 00:08:25:07
Nigel
And yet quite some alarming videos and pictures that I posted that I was like, is we're losing balance with with how we used to live. We we lost touch with our indigenous identity roots and ways of living. And I was like, okay, um, how can I shed light on this? And I started posting on social media in the Instagram, Facebook about these videos, about these neo colonial practices that were, have, that were happening around Rueben lost land damages of ecosystem services.
00:08:25:09 - 00:09:02:02
Unknown
Yeah. Just damaging our livelihood as well. So it really shed light on that and they got a lot of attention a lot of views are people reacting and getting concerned and also like you know is very controversial when sort of posting and people were very alarmed because they thought it was just, you know, same old Aruba, but because they have fresh, brand new eyes, because they didn't come to Aruba for five years and they had I left it the way it was when I came back.
00:09:02:04 - 00:09:24:07
Nigel
It was just even more eye opening what was happening around the island. And I was like, okay, I have to show people. I have to show people this. So yeah, that's mainly what started happening. And, we could talk a little deeper about what I saw as well.
Maanarak
So yeah, please do. First before we go there, I wanted to ask the reactions that you got.
00:09:24:07 - 00:09:48:16
Maanarak
Were those from the people now living still in Aruba or from the Diaspora?
Nigel
Mainly the diaspora. Um, the people of Aruba, they were concerned because there was some things that posted that they did not know about, that they were like, Oh, this is happening right in front of my nose. And and I don't even see it because I've been living here for so many years.
00:09:48:18 - 00:10:13:00
Nigel
So I became numb or like blind to it, or it was just like, you know, Yeah, just like in their face. But they didn't see it. And maybe the main reactions came from the people from the diaspora. They were really concerned because they were like, What is happening? Like what is happening to our island? We thought we left it, you know, in a in a nice, safe state, but it's getting worse and worse.
00:10:13:00 - 00:10:41:13
Nigel
So, yeah, main reactions were people from the diaspora but also on Facebook have been also posting about that and people that have been living in Aruba for many years, they were also concerned. But the main concern were like from also the forests. They were also very concerned about what was happening because they come to Aruba and they only see the touristic sites, but they don't see what's actually happening inside of Aruba.
00:10:41:14 - 00:11:09:02
Maanarak
So, yeah, yeah, I think that's the common theme within the Caribbean, because it's almost like we're living in a theme park, like you have to be on and touristic the whole time. Like, I remember this spirit in my puberty that it was very confusing to me. We had to mascot. And later someone pointed out to me that it was hella racist, but it was a mama smile.
00:11:09:02 - 00:11:36:22
Maanarak
It was like. Like this. Like you have to be smile 24/7. As someone living here, that's not possible. It's like you were always smiling, like let me just do who wakes up in the morning and puts a big smile on her face and like, well, it's like it was almost the message that I got my young brain got is that I'm not allowed to have feelings other than happiness.
00:11:37:00 - 00:12:19:02
Maanarak
I'm supposed to be happy because I'm living on this beautiful island and tourists are coming here and being a lot to come and see us. And they don't deserve this. The angry people that live here, like as if they're not or they never get angry at wherever they come from. Yeah, but yeah, that those that's one of the things that's almost traumatic in a sense to me that I had to kind of like unlearn that, that I don't have to be happy, I don't have to like, smile and that I've worked on it so much now that I start noticing when people are giving me fake smiles that I'm like, well, that was not
00:12:19:02 - 00:12:52:01
Maanarak
that. And yeah, so it is. And I'm curious because even for us, it's a battle to find us on Bonaire. It's a battle to find a balance between the whole tourism thing because it is the main source of economy of for us and for most Caribbean islands. And I do think that because of that, the government gives a lot of priority to it.
00:12:52:01 - 00:13:19:02
Maanarak
Like too much for you, I guess it's important, but there's like an obsession almost let that tourism and then you forget your own people that are living there or to the detriment of your own people that are living there, you know, and even for us that have a need, we have a nature conservation organization that's actually pretty good.
00:13:19:02 - 00:14:12:01
Maanarak
But as I grew older, I started realizing a lot of the conservation they are doing is for tourism, I guess. Yeah, it might not even be in their interest to stop it or you know dampened the tourists. Do you have a nature conservation organization on Aruba?
Nigel
Yes, we actually do is called National Park Arikok, they started establishing some new rules to make relations over around Aruba, which is historic because it has never been done before.
00:14:12:03 - 00:14:51:14
Nigel
Certain areas they did conservation sites or marine parks that you are not allowed to go in or that you need to go in or also, yeah, they put extra laws and regulations and policies there to protect it. But yeah, I'm just wondering like to protect from who precisely and that is the question where I'm like, okay, are you protecting it from our own people or are we protecting it from tourists or outsiders that come to Aruba and don't know how to live with the nature and that brings you back to, too.
00:14:51:16 - 00:15:31:02
Nigel
I'm tying it back to what you said about the constantly being happy, our slogan, Aruba is one happy island. But in reality, who are we happy for? Are we putting on this mask, this facade, or the tourists and the tourists are causing the most damage in Aruba? The industry, the industry itself. I'm not blaming the individuals and the industry and the industry is causing damage to our nature, which is why we need nature conservation is because it's going away.
00:15:31:03 - 00:16:17:01
Nigel
It's very it's degrading right before our very eyes. And I've been seeing it with all these touristic activities and all these hotels that it is degrading right in front of my eyes. And it's you know, it's quite sad because yeah, the National Conservation Park, they're really making efforts to save and expand some of the areas and really enforcing laws and regulations and presenting new laws and regulations that are updated because some of them are not updated and because they not updated loopholes can be found which hotels and tourism industry could exploit.
00:16:17:03 - 00:16:33:12
Nigel
So, long story short, yes, we do have a need to conservation, but why the because all these practices that are happening around Aruba. So that's the understanding until your bigger picture. So yeah. And what are some of these practices that you saw that you started highlighting?
Nigel
Unknown
So what happened was when I went back, the first thing that I noticed was loss of land for new giant hotels are being built and they are being built in front of the beaches of Aruba. So like, they're purposely buying the land in front of the beaches to put a giant infrastructure of those hotels there. And you could see that they are continuously selling more land like these.
00:17:02:14 - 00:17:32:18
Nigel
These real estate agents, these giant property management areas, people that are selling the land as well. Yeah, they are selling it and marketing it towards foreign investors. So they come and buy the land because they have the money and funds to do it. You have finance. Meanwhile, locals don't. Locals do not have that type of funding or money to buy the land because it's already expensive as it is.
00:17:32:20 - 00:18:01:12
Nigel
So they buy the land and they start constructing these beach areas and there they know we have no private beaches on Aruba. We have it's against the law. If you put a private beach or if you block access to the beaches. But is that really the case? Because what I noticed as well and what was happening to me being there, beaches are being privatized without us knowing.
00:18:01:13 - 00:18:28:22
Nigel
So they are purposely blocking off the access to the beach, which is one illegal and too ethically wrong, because the natives, the indigenous people that live in Aruba, we can't access our own beaches. So I have multiple videos of security guards stopping me right in front of my tracks because I am going through the private property to get to the beaches.
00:18:29:00 - 00:19:01:07
Nigel
And in our law, it's allowed to go across beaches. So they are breaking the law, but also making us lose land and buying more land. And it's just systematically happening over and over. Yeah. So that is one of the main issues that I saw, that we are losing places that are is one of the most alarming things that I saw, which is like when I'm in the first week, in the first week that I was there, I went to a beach that I used to go to every week.
00:19:01:08 - 00:19:17:11
Nigel
When I was a little kid, I learned how to swim at that beach. There's a there's a water tower, like in the ocean, and you used to swim back and forth or like, go on the water tower and then jump off of it. Yeah, that is like a childhood or memory of mine. I learned how to swim there.
00:19:17:11 - 00:19:42:21
Nigel
I used to go with family. There was every week. And now that I came back to Aruba and revisit all those memories, I just look up and then it's just this giant, monstrous hotel being built there and blocking off where I used to sit with my family, which is like underneath a we heat tree. And for me, it was like, I'm losing this.
00:19:42:21 - 00:20:07:08
Nigel
And parts of my memories are going to be constructed on top of and then I'm just losing my land. I'm losing my memories before my eyes. And the next generation will not get to experience what I experienced. And that really broke my heart because you could see that their locking of Beach, however, took a big chunk off of it.
00:20:07:10 - 00:20:40:23
Nigel
Yeah, that is eroding the land as well. So they're constructing on top of the beach and it'll obviously affect the white sand and erode the land. And slowly but surely you could see around Aruba that the oceans are also eating land because of the erosion happening from these hotels. So it's not only the systematic degrading of, you know, the ocean eroding the land, but it's also the selling, the overselling, the over constructing.
00:20:41:01 - 00:21:10:13
Nigel
So it's like a double feedback, positive feedback loop. So one this another and it's like a constant vicious cycle and they keep getting worse and worse and worse. Yeah. So loss of land is one. There's also pollution, pollution that we are seeing around Aruba. Palm Beach used to be the most beautiful beach honorable with the name at Palm Beach because there was just palm trees there and it just vast white sand everywhere.
00:21:10:15 - 00:21:40:14
Nigel
It used to look like paradise before the first hotel was constructed in Aruba. So now if you go there, um, so there's the hotel strip where the high rise hotels are. And if you notice, if you sit there and just observe, you see all these touristic activities happening, all these boat rides or these jet jet rides, I forgot what they're called in English.
00:21:40:14 - 00:22:11:06
Nigel
Like the the water jetskis. Yeah. If you keep walking all the way down the strip of Palm Beach, and if you enter the ocean where there are no hotels around Fisherman's Hut, it's more, more down on the strip. And if injured water, the sand is not sand anymore. It's sludge. It's sludge from all the touristic activities in all the hotels is being built there.
00:22:11:08 - 00:22:44:05
Nigel
And it's going downstream on the sacred lands. So you could see the entire Palm Beach. The sand is sludgy, it's muddy or it's dirty and it smells disgusting. And I filmed that to my bare hands. I grabbed it and squeezed it just so people know how sludge like it is. And not only that, not only the touristic activities, but also because we have so many hotels being built and so many tourists coming and overcrowding the areas.
00:22:44:06 - 00:23:13:09
Nigel
It's also like plastic pollution that happens there or people just throw stuff there because we have a lack of trash cans around these hotel areas. So they just throw stuff in the ocean. And it was very symbolic because I remember my first week there walking down the strip just so I could observe and see what is happening. All the tourists are sitting on the beach chairs just enjoying their vacation, their paradise, their little getaway.
00:23:13:11 - 00:23:43:17
Nigel
Meanwhile, me, someone visiting back, my pride, my homeland, my country, I was the only one picking up trash just in front of the beaches. Meanwhile, everyone was just staring and then doing nothing. Or they weren't even acknowledging the fact that the beach was that dirty because for them it's like, Oh, I'm in Aruba. It's it's paradise. Meanwhile, I have to pick up after them one by one in front of them.
00:23:43:17 - 00:24:19:21
Nigel
And get my hands dirty and then bunch of stuff. So it's also the physical materials that's being dumped in there. So there's loss of land, there's pollution because of touristic activities, There's pollution because of, you know, trash and waste being just thrown out there. But there's also the fact that these hotels are so big and our infrastructure for waste management, so sewage systems, they we don't have the right infrastructure for that mass volume of hotels and tourism.
00:24:19:23 - 00:24:44:20
Nigel
So all that waste just goes to our plans. Our waste management plan, which is located near Palm Beach and other areas around Aruba. But the big one is in Palm Beach. And that just it's just a lot of a lot of sewage water and they don't know what to do with it. So it's just being dumped back in the ocean.
00:24:44:22 - 00:25:18:05
Nigel
And I've caught videos of it, like from the source being from the hotel. And I'm tracing it back and you see the water is just muddy and foamy and it's sewage like, and it smells very bad. And there's like insects flying around there. And it's not a natural waterway there. How it used to be, It's looted by these sewage over the overload of sewage from the tourist and hotel industry.
00:25:18:07 - 00:25:49:05
Nigel
And it's just being dumped back in our ocean. And it's obviously a public health issue and also an environmental issue. So people don't understand that you are polluting our oceans. You were directed the polluting us as well. You're damaging our health. So there's multiple areas where I showed that the pollution is going straight on for ocean. The sewage system is just directly connected to our ocean, and it's happening right in front of people's eyes, but it's also very hidden.
00:25:49:05 - 00:26:16:02
Nigel
Some of them are very hidden, like in broad daylight. You can't see them, but unless you go in and go out of your way and go in there, the waterway, you see it. And it's like very alarming. So that's really happening in terms of the hotel, in terms of pollution. But there's also the racial profiling of native locals.
00:26:16:04 - 00:26:39:08
Nigel
So I was mentioning earlier about land loss and public access to beaches. Many you enter a hotel, all eyes are on you because they already could tell that you are a local. Yeah, maybe. By the way I look, maybe by the way I dress, by the way I walk or talk or anything. But they could tell that you were a local, so they come up to you straight and then kick you out of the hotel areas they like.
00:26:39:14 - 00:27:04:19
Nigel
You can't do that. And you have to stop them and remind people that you have laws protecting you, that you are allowed to access the beaches. No beaches are private. All beaches are public in Aruba. And also they cannot block or privatize entry ways to the beaches. And a lot of people don't know that. A lot of like those security guards don't know that.
00:27:04:21 - 00:27:26:17
Nigel
But you, as locals should know that you as a native person should know that access to beaches cannot be blocked. It's against the law. And and, you know, there's a lot of these things that are happening. And I have multiple footages of people just stopping me in my tracks. And then you could hear them say he's local or basically profiling, see?
00:27:26:17 - 00:27:50:03
Nigel
And then they say like, oh, you're walking with a hand back majority of the people that happens around here are because of locals. And like, I just want to get my beach it I just want to I just want to soak in the sun but is the issue so there's a lot of ecological and social problems that come with these hotel and tourism industries.
00:27:50:03 - 00:28:19:05
Nigel
And it's just getting worse and worse because there's more hotels being built and there's more tourists coming, which means more pollution, more land loss, more physical degradation of it, or privatization or gentrification. So all these things just keep on happening
Maanarak
And there's so much to unpack there too. Like, as you're talking, I'm like, Where do I even start?
00:28:19:07 - 00:28:43:08
Nigel
Yeah, exactly. So you can see it's a very complex issue because this one thing that we're so dependent on and that is good for the economy is actually bad for people and the environment. And it's like if we if we lose touch with who we are, that we what is happening and it's so complex and so interconnected. Yeah.
00:28:43:10 - 00:29:11:15
Maanarak
And people don't know that we are stuck in this old unsustainable system that is that used to benefit. We used to benefit from it, but now we are not benefiting from it anymore. It's not sustainable development and I can't even like I even question to what degree it's even economically beneficial anymore, except for giving a few people jobs because it's a double edged sword, as you said.
00:29:11:15 - 00:29:47:17
Maanarak
Like yes, it brings or in the past brought some kind of like stable income. But as if I can compare again to Bonaire, the effect of the tourism being there and being such a vital part of the economy. It puts stress on the infrastructure that's already not great. There's a lack of quality in terms of how far this industry can grow, and because of that is actually putting stress on the supply.
00:29:47:17 - 00:30:14:20
Maanarak
Because I don't know about Aruba, but Bonaire imports about 90% of the food. And because they're there's so much stress on the supply, because these are people, they're going to come there. They want to eat and usually take over consume as well. Because you're on vacation, you want to eat actually. Good. So they're getting the best like the best stock that that is doing it.
00:30:14:22 - 00:30:44:04
Maanarak
And it's making the supply that is the limited supplies that do come in. It's making it more expensive also for the local people is making the land more expensive for the local people to buy. I'm happy that I have a house that I get to inherit. That's why I decided to just move back because my parents don't see that I can manage it being from here.
00:30:44:04 - 00:31:05:03
Maanarak
So I was like, Wait a minute, I'm coming. You're not telling me it's a very good location that if we sell it, we're never going to get that opportunity back to have such a location and let alone if you're going to buy a new plot of land on Bonaire, where and how much is that going to cost?
00:31:05:03 - 00:31:42:11
Maanarak
Because it has gotten so much more expensive. And for us, we don't have this. A lot of most of those are not really high rise, at least I haven't seen if I can compare to Aruba like the really high rise hotels that you kind of see in Miami, which I bring this connotation because I know this lady from Aruba that lives on Bonaire and years ago I'm talking about more than ten years ago, she was bragging that Aruba is like the little Miami.
00:31:42:11 - 00:32:08:13
Maanarak
And I was like, I don't know. That's something you want to be proud of.
Nigel
Weird, weird flex. But okay, I don't think we want to be that, but. Okay. Yeah, that's like. Like it's such a small island, like, I think we forget how small. And especially, I think if we're talking about the ABC's address, Aruba is one of the most known out of all of us.
00:32:08:15 - 00:32:37:05
Nigel
But people don't because of how big it is and why people and really fence, though actually how small of the island actually is our name is big. But yeah, we have limited land and water so it's just and we keep selling them. And then like you said, there's just this ultra tourist that come through but that wants to spend and overconsume.
00:32:37:08 - 00:33:05:18
Nigel
All these things is this is to me because like you said, the thing about the, the area that described Aruba is like Miami. Is that good? Do we want to be Miami or do we want to keep Aruba? How our ancestors left it behind us know, it's like for me, I'm thinking of the way that people are pushing the just the way of living.
00:33:05:18 - 00:33:35:04
Nigel
So the people before me, that's just the before the hotels started in the sixties, maybe the fifties. Yeah. So maybe people from the age of like, grandfathers or grandparents, grandparents, grandmothers, they lived in Aruba where we're adults. So that was that was their baseline. And then they saw the couple hotels coming in. They were like, I see we're going to get income from this.
00:33:35:06 - 00:33:55:01
Nigel
They weren't high rise. They were just like, you know, low rise hotels. They saw an opportunity. They were like, okay, maybe we can sell a part of our land so we can get some money to sustain us because you know, we just have an all in the oil industry or oil and gas industry. They just crude oil selling.
00:33:55:01 - 00:34:48:11
Nigel
And that was already an environmental disaster and a lot of human trafficking and social issues. Then when that closed, we had to quickly think of something else. So people from that generation were like, okay, it's let's start with the system. Let's start with this is with this business idea, business strategy of making Aruba touristic site that already was like already a switch in what happened in when we went to one unsustainable system to another because we already started viewing Aruba as a landscape, a touristic area, rather than a country, rather than an island that's living, rather than an island that has ecosystems rather than an island that people our livelihood is affected by the nature.
00:34:48:13 - 00:35:10:07
Nigel
So, you know, they started building the hotel one by one, and it was like they rise, they rise, they rise and then the first high rise hotel came and it was like, oh, okay. Like, you know, and that was the generation before me, you know, maybe, maybe I'm a Gen X. There were the boomers that they were like, okay, they we're going to get there.
00:35:10:07 - 00:35:32:04
Nigel
And then Gen X, you know, more high rise hotels started coming up or became bigger. Bigger Palm Beach was like the area where they sold the most land. And you see all these giant hotels, which is very intimidating. As you what I it and you noticing right before your very eyes that this is taking over this is the new form of colonialism.
00:35:32:06 - 00:35:59:17
Nigel
Yeah. People don't understand that so that the baseline for Gen X is like, oh, you know, this high rise hotels now we are going to thrive even more. We're going to thrive even more. And then the next generation is like, okay, we grew up in a weird in a weird situation. We're like, okay, hotels are normal. It's keeping our economy, you know, safe, it's stabilizing it, whatever.
00:35:59:19 - 00:36:29:02
Nigel
But then more sort of happening, more, more. And it kept building more. So we are losing more land. And also we don't have enough space to pump more. So then now you have like open your eyes and say, is growth really development? Because we're using two things growth and development. It's not developing anymore either. Already Overdeveloped. Yeah. Can't grow anymore.
00:36:29:02 - 00:37:00:17
Nigel
Like that is the model that used to benefit us back then. But now they keep adding more and it's like okay, from low rise with those little a lot of low rise hotels to like a lot of high rise hotels. And then our generation has to experience a lot of all inclusive, high rise hotels, which is like an extra step where they get everything at the hotel so they don't invest in the local economy, they don't buy restaurants, they don't everything is already provided for them.
00:37:00:19 - 00:37:29:05
Nigel
They get the full Paradise Caribbean experience. Yeah, you know, we're not benefiting from it, but this is our baseline. Yeah. Set by being in an all inclusive thing. Like you're enclosed essentially in there and you don't see all of the things happening outside. Know like I just spoke is over here, you know, that's the red herring is the idea that it's like, Yeah, yeah.
00:37:29:07 - 00:37:52:04
Nigel
So it's just it's crazy me because people are like, yes, put more all-inclusive hotels because more money is being generated there because then like not necessarily doesn't invest in the local economy and invest all the money goes back to the hotel and then the hotel owners is it's like..
Maanarak
and then outside of Aruba, probably because they're not even there.
00:37:52:06 - 00:37:52:22
Nigel
Exactly.
00:37:52:22 - 00:38:23:20
Nigel
So United Nations reported that 80% like so the tour the Caribbean is the most tourist dependent region in the world. We are very dependent on tourism. And it's scary because all of our money comes from them. Yeah, but is that the case because you, in a UN report at United Nations, reported that 80% of the money generated within the Caribbean ends up leaving the Caribbean, then there's 20%.
00:38:23:20 - 00:38:51:13
Nigel
So majority of the hotels are the ones benefiting from it. So again, you see it again that it's like neocolonialism, that these hotels are the one exploiting our land, luring it, taking more and then take leaving. But most of the money, meanwhile, we are here with 20%. That has to be gone through the government first, which is a very corrupt issue.
00:38:51:13 - 00:39:20:12
Nigel
That is like a whole different topic. And then it goes trickle down to organizations, you know, oligarchs, all of those that are around the government. And then the little bits, the little scraps with the locals. And it's just again, back to the thing about how people view it as like economic growth. It's like, yeah, we do get jobs, we do get jobs.
00:39:20:13 - 00:39:22:17
Nigel
What type of jobs do we get?
00:39:22:17 - 00:39:48:15
Nigel
like if you see organizational charts around all of the hotels, the people at the bottom, the people with minimum known salaries are the locals. Majority are just locals. The people in middle management, upper management, board of directors, CEOs. They're just non-locals. So you can see again, it's like we are at the short end of the stick yet again.
00:39:48:17 - 00:40:35:10
Nigel
So socially with in terms of labor, yes, do it does bring a lot of jobs but are the jobs sustainable? Are they worth it will be help us with making ends meet at the end of the month. I don't think so.
Maanarak
So not with those prices.
Nigel
No, it's exactly.
Maanarak
It's so complex that there's so much that went in my head just from that first of all, feels like kind of the legacy of slavery in the sense that, as you said, the neo colonialism, it's like new slavery, almost like, Yes, your kind of people really are you really at the end of the day?
00:40:35:12 - 00:41:05:05
Maanarak
And then because of that, I then had an understanding which will be a bit of a sidetrack for what we were talking about. Your story by my friend, the other day. She's from Trinidad and she was talking about maybe changing jobs or something and she said, I'm not going to work in a hotel because it's beneath me. And I was I was shocked to my core because I worked in a hotel here in Amsterdam, which was fine.
00:41:05:05 - 00:41:47:08
Maanarak
But now, as we're talking, I don't think I could compare how you're treated working here in Amsterdam as opposed to working in a hotel in the Caribbean, because there you are literally treated like you are beneath the people. They're your servants. And not a reason why I say this reminded me of like the legacy of slavery is because of the profiling, as you were saying, of local people and how that takes place in Bonaire.
00:41:47:08 - 00:42:20:10
Maanarak
Indeed that the we also don't have we're not supposed to have private beaches but you have there's a lot of rich people usually Europeans usually Dutch because it is island it come there and then it similar to what the high rise hotels are doing buy up land at the beach. Some actually build houses like on the literal beach that when there is like a little bit of waves, like it goes through their houses.
00:42:20:12 - 00:43:14:09
Maanarak
Yeah. What? Yeah.
Nigel
Like, you know it's crazy to with the. Yeah.
Maanarak
The other thing is that that simple example with the, with the goats that the goat is, is the staple meat on the island and then in, in like the national park local people are like being like for lack of a better word, prosecuted for wanting to get the, the, the goat meat which, which is insane because these other rich people and rich companies like you have the Corendon Hotel now which is the most controversial one on Bonaire because they put like fake sand and they were supposed to build a wall so it doesn't go into the water.
00:43:14:09 - 00:43:47:09
Maanarak
But they didn't. So it's been an ongoing battle like the government has been much more lenient with them, the local people trying to feed themselves with some goats.
Nigel
It's like it's like your priority is elsewhere. Elsewhere, your focus should be elsewhere. Where are you are getting the locals for eating goats. Meanwhile, your land is being created by its it's wild me.
00:43:47:14 - 00:44:33:13
Nigel
You know these things also happens to Aruba where I'm like people look at the bigger picture. Look at the bigger picture. Look around us like why? Where are we? What is happening? Way is these practices that are happening. We're letting them happen for the sake of the economy. Meanwhile, it's is it's terrible. It's so many things just go wrong with it that I there's so many arguments why they are not good and yet you're still doing it because we're still part of the status quo of it's good for us if our economy is good for jobs, livelihood, you know, none of those are true.
00:44:33:15 - 00:45:10:16
Nigel
It's just it's crazy because you said something about the fake sand on the beaches. Well, we also have similar cases like that, too. Remember? Remember when I said we earlier about the erosion of the hotels when they built a hotel on top of white sand, the white sand around gets eroded. Which leads to the ocean eating the land as well, taking back with it.
00:45:10:18 - 00:45:37:06
Nigel
So it's happening around Aruba where there's like there's one All-Inclusive hotel. I'll say the name the Divi & Tamarijn all inclusive. There's one specifically at Casa del Mar. If you go there, it put giant sand bags on top of the beach to block it from eroding more sand. And I'm like, okay, so one, where did you get the sand from?
00:45:37:08 - 00:46:00:11
Nigel
Where did you get the sand from? Where did you dig it from and to if you preventing it from being avoided? The maybe you should. The call is coming from inside the house. Maybe you should like give back the land, because the reason why it being eroded is because of the hotels. The same hotels are putting giant sand bags there because they're trying to prevent erosion.
00:46:00:13 - 00:46:35:04
Nigel
Meanwhile, the problem is really themselves, You know, the solutions is is really to give back the land, because that's the only way that we can like, you know, stop erosion from happening. So it's crazy. It's it's nuts. And when when I told you about this, which is where where's the sand coming from? Where are you finding sand? And I also looked around Aruba for, you know, other unsustainable practices in other things that are connected to the hotel and tourism industry.
00:46:35:04 - 00:47:10:07
Nigel
And I found multiple hidden areas around Aruba and also around like specific conservation areas and sites on Aruba, where they are systematically digging in giant holes. And from that, from that material they're making like the materials to create these hotels. So they're doing that to create the pavements or construction things or the hotels or also the sand they put their in front of the beach.
00:47:10:09 - 00:47:40:23
Nigel
So as you can see, like these hotels are also causing giant whores all over Aruba. And I'm not that out to like different north of where it's at. And it's getting worse and worse. Jane Halls. And I'm like, this is physical degradation of our land as well. You're just extracting stuff from the from the Earth's crust and just using it to build more hotels, which will lead to more land erosion.
00:47:41:01 - 00:48:03:08
Nigel
And it's like I it makes sense like these it's so interconnected in the so like if you can map out the system and it's like a machine. Yeah it's like all the cogs in the wheel are just turning wrong and it's just like leading to one problem here, one problem here. You're connecting this and it's still problem there.
00:48:03:12 - 00:48:34:17
Nigel
It's like the entire system as a whole. It's flawed. It's not it's not helping us anymore.
Maanarak
Do you also have an issue with like cruise ships?
Nigel
Absolutely. Absolutely. So alarmingly, we get a lot of tourists coming through with ships and they come in for one day or maybe two, maybe even three, and then they leave. When you get to see Aruba, beautiful, you get this is just a glimpse, this maybe a year later.
00:48:34:19 - 00:49:01:01
Nigel
But then let's really dive deep into it. So the areas where the cruise ship stop is very close to Surfside Beach, which is like an area where there's like little tiny fishes, you know, really cute fishes. And you see local fishermen, Like I caught a video of a local fisherman throwing his net there, like in native grass and just grabbing all the fishes and about to feed, his family.
00:49:01:03 - 00:49:23:13
Nigel
Hmm. And in the distance, you can see the cruise ship there. And I'm like, okay, let me inspect even more. Let me let me just double check if the water is actually healthy or the water is like not lurid. The scope, the sand. The sand, again, is sludge. Like it's dirty, it's valley. And it's because of all the cruise ships happening in a distance.
00:49:23:13 - 00:49:54:19
Nigel
So we are eating the pollution from these cruise ships. So that is one thing that we are also affected because it's our food source that we bring to our families. But not only that is like I found this alarming fact of Aruba is so after the cruise ship goes all around the Caribbean, they collect all, you know, the waste and junk and sewage and stuff.
00:49:54:21 - 00:50:24:20
Nigel
And then typically, the last point, because we're on the southern Caribbean, last island is typically Aruba. So what they do is they just leave all the waste, leave all this sewage in Aruba. And it's crazy because there's like reports of this happening that, like, it's just it's not regulated. Why are we the dumping ground on and like, we are the one that's collecting all the waste?
00:50:24:22 - 00:51:01:12
Nigel
Yeah, it's not even ours first of all. Second, it's the tourists. They're on the ship. You know, It's like, yes, you're visiting our island one to maybe. Maybe even, like, 4 hours.’
Maanarak
Yeah, a few hours this day sometimes. Yeah.
Nigel
So. But the damage left behind for that 4 hours, it just stay in Aruba. It's generations. Yeah, because we have to fix the waste management management problem that comes from these cruise ships that are always coming in, like on a weekly basis.
00:51:01:12 - 00:51:31:02
Nigel
There's like more ships coming in, dumping their stuff, the luring the ocean where we eat from. No. So you see, it's like just more and more. It's it's scary. Really scary.
Maanarak
I was watching a documentary, I think it was last week, and I remember the exact name, but it was talking about the tourism and how it looked at different places all over the world.
00:51:31:04 - 00:52:02:03
Maanarak
And it was talking about these issues and it basically mentions that, first of all, no one really owns the tourism industry and it's been one of the industries this really have been left unchecked in terms of its environment impact. And because it's been left unchecked for so long, it's become part of this monster of environmental issues. And I'm not going to lie.
00:52:02:04 - 00:52:31:15
Maanarak
I want it like when I was younger, I wanted to go on a cruise ship because there's some kind of romanization of going on. But definitely international involvement that is ruined me. There's that. Yeah. Yes, I know that.
Nigel
Open your eyes. Just. Yeah, yeah, just open your eyes more. You're like, Yeah, what is this?
Maanarak
Yeah, yeah, yeah. In that sense, I totally agree that ignorance is bliss.
00:52:31:17 - 00:53:00:18
Maanarak
Oh, does I wish I could be ignorant, but I unfortunately, that's not the fact. That was a lot of me in this life that I'm very much aware. And I see. I see two things. And yeah, because they see the things I do wonder like how, how do we stop this? How do we like get to a point where we're not one so dependent on tourism?
00:53:00:19 - 00:53:43:02
Maanarak
The tour tourism worldwide actually starts being checked and actually it starts taking responsibility for its pollution. That and one of the issues also that the documentary mentioned is that it's so polluting because all of us want to go to the same places around the same time of the year.
Nigel
Its crazy. Yeah, Yeah.
Maanarak
So that's that would really mention that as one of the issues and yeah like how can one even start solving such a wicked problem.
00:53:43:02 - 00:54:07:01
Nigel
Yeah because yeah it is a wicked problem. The way you describe is very wicked. It's very complex, There's so many interconnections in between. But I could give like maybe four things that we could do and I might, you know, digress just slightly when I'm going through each one of those, but I'll come back to them. Okay. But first one is, is who is betting fitting?
00:54:07:03 - 00:54:38:14
Nigel
Who is benefiting from tourism and what does view so that you have to trace back where does the money go? Where does the majority of the money go Now? So our Minister of Public Health and whereas he posted on Facebook was that or point to billion urban florins get generated from or is it well where does it go where does it get distributed?
00:54:38:16 - 00:55:04:11
Nigel
And yes, there's a lot of money, but where does it go? And it's crazy because, you know, if I have to go down to where it's really a corruption scheme and I've been trying to speak up about this more and more about how corruption happens and how these hotel deals get signed because of people in power, because of the ministers and all this stuff, they get a say in it.
00:55:04:16 - 00:55:30:23
Nigel
They can give the green light and also they can they can buy stocks or shares within the hotel. So they are the first ones to be like, I want more money. If I get this, I will keep getting more money for years to come. So they're benefiting from it. Plus also, for example, the Minister of Tourism and Public Health, of course, he wants more tourists.
00:55:31:01 - 00:55:58:01
Nigel
Of course, he wants more tourist because he is he's doing a good job. He is benefiting from it. And I digress just slightly. It's because like also he is the son of the ex-prime minister. So you can see a little nepotism in it, too. So they created the system where they will keep benefiting from it. Yeah. Meanwhile, the locals, they don't get much.
00:55:58:03 - 00:56:45:05
Nigel
There's also human trafficking happening in most of the hotels is being constructed. The construction workers, the engineers, all those things, they're being trafficked right before our very eyes. Don't. Who is benefiting from this? Yeah, nobody. So locals, neither locals or immigrants that are the imports will build. These hotels are benefiting from it. So the people in power, we have to find a way to like get the money out of their pockets, which is a whole different conversation and probably a different podcast, which another specialist could talk about because I, you know, I could go on to talk about corruption for hours, but I'm not that educated in it and I not that I'm very vocal
00:56:45:05 - 00:57:08:15
Nigel
about it and see and I could point out the system. Yeah, but I don't know how to stop either. So there's that it's more the money and power from them because they are benefiting the most from it. You know, how do we stop? Another thing is like, okay, so that was when the people in power who was benefiting from it, the government obviously, and their nepotism circle, that's one.
00:57:08:15 - 00:57:38:22
Nigel
So we just have to remove their power, remove their money and equally distributed places. That is, you know, people that needed places, they needed organizations that benefit more from it, like, you know, stuff like these. The second thing is we have this very flawed tax system. They call it tax holiday in Aruba. Tax holiday is when, you know, they sign a deal that they want to buy a plot of land on Aruba.
00:57:39:01 - 00:58:21:01
Nigel
They build the hotel in front of a beach, for example. Now, when they're done constructing a government, created this tax system that basically says that they get tax free for ten years, they do not pay any taxes for ten years. So they are they are not now investing in local economy. So there's ten years of that after those hotels are done with those ten years, either they sell the property and a new hotel comes in and then they get another ten year tax free holiday.
00:58:21:03 - 00:58:48:21
Nigel
So that you see the flaw, you see the flaw, right? So they get another ten year tax free holiday. Yeah. Or and I've seen it around Aruba multiple times. It just changed their name. It changed the hotel means they get another year tax free. And it's like what Because I've seen like hotels exempt I forgot what but the name was because it changed so many times.
00:58:48:21 - 00:59:08:11
Nigel
Now it’s called Bunker. Bunker? No, they changed it again, either partially or something. They changed it so many times that I can't keep track of who they are now. Like, where are you, Holiday Inn? No, you weren't. You changed the president where you know, you changed Concord. Oh, it's like. So they're getting it is the fly the system is.
00:59:08:12 - 00:59:40:23
Nigel
So you have to like put an end to the tax holiday and actually tax them so we can get more money. We can retain the money that they are taking outside of the Caribbean. This is like that is one. Yeah. And also add new tax, which is to put an environmental tax. So not only do they get to pay regular taxes, but with extra taxes because of the environmental damage, it has to we have to have equity of some sort.
00:59:40:23 - 01:00:07:18
nigel
So if you are going to put a giant high rise, all inclusive, or at least invest in the nature that you just damage. At least put like let the money go conservation or something that cleans up the pollution or something of that sort where we get an environmental tax on the hotels. Yeah. So again, the first point is people in power that are benefiting from it, meaning the government.
01:00:07:21 - 01:00:33:15
Nigel
The second point is the tax is the tax issues. Fix it. It's a it's a flawed system, except immediately because it's still happening. And we have still in the future from insider information, we are going to have many more hotels that are in line to buy land and do the exact same tax evasion system that they're doing, the same tactics.
01:00:33:15 - 01:01:02:06
Nigel
That's why they see Aruba as like a good exploitation part. So you taxes evil power. The third part is degrowth. Yeah, degrowth. We have to sort of process of degrowth. We cannot develop even more. We cannot. We cannot. This is not developing. It is growing. We are not developing. It's not sustainable. We what we need to do is a stop what we're doing and stop viewing tourism and money as or GDP as the main source of prosperity.
01:01:02:07 - 01:01:38:22
Nigel
If you social justice and environmental and ecological livelihood as new ways of prosperity so degrowth, we have to stop it. We can't grow anymore. You just can't. Aruba Tourism Authority released a report a couple years back saying, We exceeded we exceeded the capacity carrying capacity of Aruba. Now that the people that are, you know, getting a lot of tourists, you know, the organization that runs the tourism system, they even mentioned we exceeded the carrying capacity of Aruba.
01:01:39:00 - 01:02:08:01
Nigel
We cannot grow anymore. If they are saying is. So if they're seeing it that we can't have any more hotels or tourism, if locals are saying we can't have any more hotels in tourism, if conservation experts and national parks are seeing it, if specialists in sustainability are seeing it, if people have people working minimum wage up, if everyone is seeing it, what are we really for?
01:02:08:03 - 01:02:35:11
Nigel
Why are we stopping the growth for us? Like again? Yeah, the people that are in power are the ones that's continuing it. So it's really neat stuff. And the degrowth process is just the economy is stable as it is. It's believe it or not, things are expensive. Yes, our cost of living is very expensive and it's getting more expensive.
01:02:35:13 - 01:03:07:20
Nigel
Why is it getting more expensive? It's because we are putting more hotels, more gentrification. Gentrification leads to rising costs of living. So it's like again, the cycle is continuing and people don't know because they're like no more. Hotels means we're getting more money. Meanwhile, the exact opposite. So it's really that it's really that that sense of just listen, listen to us like we cannot do anymore.
01:03:07:20 - 01:03:46:08
Nigel
We cannot grow. We can't. It's impossible. Like we are losing a lot. And the fourth one is and it's a really important one if give the land back land, back is a movement, the indigenous peoples of it fighting for all around ex colonial territories. So in Puerto Rico and what do you gain in Hawaii? In Fiji, different areas around the world are suffering the same things and they're all islands and they're suffering the same neocolonialism system that they're that they imposed onto us.
01:03:46:10 - 01:04:14:19
Nigel
They are going through the exact same thing. And they are also mentioning if the land back do not come to the island anymore, we are we can't with we it's overcapacity. It's over. We are livelihoods are being affected. There are do they know like Aruba the thing that made Aruba so market of war so that people want to go there is the nature.
01:04:14:21 - 01:04:34:15
Nigel
Is the needs of the reason why people were like and I can see the same for Bonaire. The reason why people want to go to Bonaire is because it's so beautiful. Like the nature there is so pristine. Yeah, but we're losing that. Our golden child. We're just losing. It is our land. So just give it back.
01:04:34:18 - 01:05:01:10
Nigel
Give it back and understand like that. We're taking too much. We gave them a finger. They're taking the whole arm. Yeah, we. We said by now I would say exactly. Exactly. We are seeing hey, you took it took the land. Build your hotels. Yeah. So we can benefit from it. You know, we sacrificed a bit. Now we're sacrificing way too much, giving too much.
01:05:01:11 - 01:05:30:06
Nigel
We can't give any more. We need the land back. We. We need it for our next generation. Because, again, remember when I mentioned think about the baseline that previous generation. Know what else? The next generation. All right. The next generation. I raised my generation. I raised all inclusive. The next generation. Concrete, concrete island, no nature, no holes in Aruba or no reefs pollution.
01:05:30:08 - 01:05:51:04
Nigel
And I'm thinking about the next generation, like I don't want to compromise the needs and livelihood of the next generation now and the and the wait, not make them compromise. It is to give the land back. I want them to have beaches to swim and I want them to have like clean water. I want them to have fishes that they can eat at the ocean.
01:05:51:09 - 01:06:20:02
Nigel
I want them to have like Aruba that doesn't have giant holes in the middle of the land, like these types of things. They just give it back. Give it back like. And I know they won't give it back that easily. No, that's why right. Yeah. That's why we are fighting like us as indigenous peoples. We are really striving for the land back because then they're not going to hand it over that easily.
01:06:20:04 - 01:06:42:21
Nigel
The people that bought the hotels or bought their houses. Yeah. Like usually rich investors that they bought their houses in front of the hotels. You're not going to give it back. Who wants to give up something so beautiful? Once they give up like a bit like you wake up in the morning first thing is, is the beach, your viewers, the funds that of the beach of Aruba, who wants to give it away?
01:06:42:23 - 01:07:08:08
Nigel
Nobody, because it's so pretty. But they keep forgetting it's ours. It's ours. We gave you it for a reason because we thought it would benefit us, but it's not benefiting us anymore. So if you give it if you give it back, if you give the land back and just leave it as it is, we're restoring nature. We're not even like there's a step of conserving what we have, which we are currently doing.
01:07:08:08 - 01:07:27:12
Nigel
We're trying to conserve as much as we can. Yeah, but the next step is to restore. Yeah. We're not restoring really not restoring anymore because it's really hard. Because we're not getting the land back now. We're not getting our mangroves back because they're all cut down. And that's a whole different thing as well. Like mangroves protect us. Yeah.
01:07:27:13 - 01:08:02:12
Maanarak
Yeah, so is. But I remember what I came to my mind now in Bonaire we have initiatives that are actively restoring mangrove and making sure that more is grown every spring, the reefs because we know, as you mentioned, the baseline. I was talking to someone that was on a webinar. I worked on air for some time and he was telling me the baseline, but in terms of the ecosystem of the water.
01:08:02:12 - 01:08:43:15
Maanarak
So he said it took my father as an example, which was born in 1946. He would have seen the the waters around Bonaire in this case Curacao because that's where he comes from, with sharks, just that it was normal to have a bunch of sharks and a bunch of reefs and a bunch of fish. And then by the time, let's say my sisters came around, which is about 1980, there would be significantly less sharks and reefs.
01:08:43:15 - 01:09:29:21
Maanarak
But that's that was their normal still. And then by time I came around in the nineties, by normal, I still it was like, whoa, fishes reefs and now there's even less of that. And that's like my, my niece and nephew that, that very much less fishes and reefs and bleached orals as well other roles. And the shocking thing for me is that I my baseline was every, every weekend we went to the beach, we were swimming and then I was shocked that when I went back last December, I was there and I wanted to swim.
01:09:29:21 - 01:10:14:02
Maanarak
As you say, you want to relive that. What would you like if you're here in Europe? Then the first thing you want to do when you get back is it's right? Yes. Yes. So I like to swim. And I went with my little nephew in the water and he was scared because my sisters weren't taking them, like to the beach is regular and that that that they didn't like compute it in my head, knowing how we grew up and how often we went to the beach just because the social fabric of the society changed so much since, let's say, the 2010 change in the Constitution, that it became part of the Netherlands.
01:10:14:02 - 01:10:43:21
Maanarak
And then a lot of Europeans came in and other people from over different islands from the Caribbean, because whenever suddenly like this lucrative kind of look as if a place to be. And that changed so much, I think that they don't really go out as much and they don't really do the activities that we used to do when it was different when we were growing up.
01:10:43:23 - 01:11:28:23
Maanarak
So yeah, it does have this social impact is really big and in terms of how what we can enjoy in our own islands, but also in terms of how we see ourselves and are worth as a result, what are we and what we're entitled to. In your case that you're talking about land, it's the sense of entitlement to think you're going to go in someone else's land and take their land and treat it poorly, and then when they ask it back, you're like, No, because I'm profiting from it, whether it be economically or from a beautiful view, as you were saying.
01:11:29:01 - 01:11:57:03
Maanarak
And then the yeah, that environmental impact that it's ironic to me. You don't realize that the very thing that's making your money that you're ruining it when that's ruined what money are you going to me.
Nigel
And that's what, what else is happening. Like how. What are you doing?
Maanarak
I hope that doesn't compute to people.
01:11:57:04 - 01:12:27:17
Maanarak
And I did this training to become a climate coach, and one of the things that they were talking about is like flying and how polluting it is. And so you're trying to make people think for themselves why they should maybe fly less because, yes, you're flying to beautiful places, but by flying to those beautiful places, you're contributing to the climate change, which will turn ruin those beautiful places.
01:12:27:17 - 01:12:52:05
Nigel
So yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, what are we doing? Like, it's just open your eyes, look at the bigger picture. And, you know, the thing that you mentioned about the baseline of going to the beaches and seeing those things, like, it resonated with me a lot as well. Terms of the I when I went to specific Beach in Aruba where there's sea turtles, there's actual sea turtles that go there.
01:12:52:10 - 01:13:14:09
Nigel
Yeah. And I went the snorkel. I was like, okay, I'm going to see some sea turtles. The and then when I arrive the beach, there is so many whereas the boats at this party, boats just park around very, very close to the shore, which, you know, they eat the sea grass around there and you see like those propellers is they're very dangerous.
01:13:14:14 - 01:13:39:19
Nigel
Yeah. So they could kill them and they have been killing them. And you know, I went down there to see if they could see any fishes and it was dead because of the sound, the the sound pollution, the pollution in general. It scared away the fishes. They, it, it probably said like rubber became too dirty. I'm yeah, I'm going, I'm going elsewhere soon.
01:13:39:21 - 01:14:01:06
Nigel
So there's like let's, let's see the other island is not it. And you know and to me is is very alarming because again the next generation is going to it's going to have that effect because they're going to they're going to go through that that same thing. They're going to go to the beach and then just see bunch of boats like this is normal.
01:14:01:08 - 01:14:31:01
Nigel
It's always been like this. Oh, it's you know, I saw turtles. And then before me there was a coral reefs and before me there was like a whole giant ecosystem thriving. It's like you said, we're losing with making money. And the thing is, the reason why it's like that is because, you know, the thing about people, planet, profit right now, it's typical business model, if you will, profit which one?
01:14:31:03 - 01:14:56:07
Nigel
Okay. So they see it as like three bubbles. That's like equally as big. Yeah. Like economy, ecology and social systems.
Maanarak
Yeah, I would argue they see economy a bit bigger than those other two, but
Nigel
Very much and that very much. And that is the issue because they see it as like economic growth is will be rate for prosperity is for the next generation.
01:14:56:09 - 01:15:18:15
Nigel
Meanwhile in reality the model is supposed to be ecological system is the bigger one. The nested system, it's the biggest one. We live in nature. We are nature, We are inside of that system. Yeah. So there's the ecological system and then there's the small, there's the medium sized one which is inside of it, which is the social systems.
01:15:18:15 - 01:15:45:20
Nigel
We are part of. That culture happens there because of nature. You know, humans live, there's all these other social systems that happen inside the ecological system. And then there's a tiny, small thing that's inside the social system. So it's like ecological, social and the smallest one is economy is it's a system that people created, not the environment.
01:15:45:20 - 01:16:17:07
Nigel
The environment is just a bigger, bigger thing. Social is like what's in it. Everything is social. And then there's a smaller one, which is a smaller system that were created by the social system, which is economy. People have to understand that we're putting so much attention and focus and efforts on that one small bit. Now, you know, the rest of the big nested system is just being...
01:16:17:09 - 01:16:49:01
Nigel
It's just, yes, right before our very eyes. And it's just it's sad to me that we we lost touch with how we live, how we used to be one, what nature, how we have a symbiotic relationship with nature and our ecosystems and just environment in general. We used it, We used to live with it very sustainably. But because of that one little thought in that social system, that one economic system, it just got messed up completely.
01:16:49:02 - 01:17:26:17
Nigel
So yeah, it's really, yeah, a complex issue to bring forward and to enlighten people, to educate people about that. You know, people sometimes just get stuck in the status quo and they're just a tiny cog in the system and they don't know what it is. So what we really need is just systematic change. And that change of how we view prosperity, how we view land, how we view people of power, how we view, you know, the systems that we created, we just need systematic change.
01:17:26:22 - 01:17:55:13
Nigel
It has to happen So very soon. Very, very soon. Because we don't have much time left. We are very vulnerable group. We are an island. It's not that big and we won't survive. The major catastrophe is we won't survive. Like it's a lot happening and we just need systematic change and the right leaders to do this. So it's a Oh, it's the thing.
01:17:55:15 - 01:18:28:18
Maanarak
Yeah, but I, I'm maybe I'm always a hopeful person. Yeah. And I do hope and wish for the paradigm shift to come where we see it again, as you explained the ecology first social and then economic as a result of those two things. And yeah, I'm going to cut it here becease I think we can talk about this the whole day.
01:18:28:23 - 01:18:54:00
Nigel
That’s understandable, but I hope you know, I give some insight and into the picture for a lot of people and what's happening around here around the Caribbean.
Maanarak
And I really like the conversation and again like a would be we can have a follow up of this conversation another time.
01:18:54:02 - 01:19:31:07
Maanarak
That's good That's me. And yeah, I agree with you on that. It has to be systemic change. We have to change our values. What we value and we have to reconnect certain things because as you said now I think it's like the bubbles, like social bubble, economic bubble and logical bubble, but it's all interconnected and it's important that we start connecting them again and putting things in the right place, in the right sense of importance as well around it.
01:19:31:09 - 01:20:00:04
Maanarak
Definitely. And yeah, I'm excited to see where this goes and what comes from the actions and the result of your advocacy around this issue and yeah, until next time on the Kreashon podcast.
Nigel
Thank you for having me. I really, really appreciate it. And hopefully to keep this dialog going and to keep advocating. So thank you so much. Thank you.
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